An Interview with Visionary, Matthew Fox
Originally published in Healing Garden Journal, April 2003.

Matthew Fox, an Episcopal priest, and the author of over twenty books, is considered to be one of the living, spiritual giants of our time. His theology of “Creation Spirituality,” the belief that all creation is a blessing, continues to move people the world over towards deeper ways of living in this sacred universe. Fr. Fox is also the founder of the University of Creation Spirituality in Oakland, California. His newest book, Creativity: Where the Divine and Human Meet, is his most reader-friendly book yet, urging the everyday person to examine their own life, work and citizenship; to live peaceably with activism; and, most importantly, to establish deep communion with the Divine. We recently had the privilege of interviewing Matthew Fox and are pleased to share with you his visionary wisdom for living in today’s world.

HGJ: Your book seems to offer a message we all need to hear at times like these. It is a book of great hope and encouragement.

Matthew Fox: Thank you.

HGJ: In your book you state that we as humans have taken over the process of evolution. Can you say more about that?

Matthew Fox: I’m really quoting scientists like Peter Russell who serves on our faculty. Evolution is a gradual process. It has a few abrupt changes, like with the dinosaurs or meteors, but usually evolution happens over eons of time. As humans we are taking over the planet. We are so hyperactive, so hypercreative, that we are literally changing the planet day by day and we are out pacing evolution. So we have to recognize this; we can’t be in denial of how responsible we need to be because we are a faster moving species than nature is used to dealing with. Our fast moving minds, our passions, make tremendous changes. Global warming is just one example. The Holocaust would be another example. We have underestimated our power and, in doing so, we have trivialized sin or evil. If we are capable as a species of unbalancing the entire planet as it is now, which we are, the first thing we need to do is recognize it, and then we can do something about it. We have the power to make many, many species extinct and this has to be recognized. We cannot be in denial about it.

We are evolution ourselves, so it is almost as if evolution took this tremendous risk in birthing us. A being which doesn’t live for long, but is awfully passionate about things, and has this huge intelligence that can be used to either destroy or create, and is not programmed very much by DNA. So most of our decision making and ethics comes from culture and education and religions. We’ve had a lot of spiritual teachers around the world who taught us about compassion and we ought to be practicing it, whether it be Gandhi or Buddha, and we’re not too good at getting the message. It has a lot to do with our evolutionary responsibility. What is going to happen ultimately is what Hildegard (of Bingen) warned us about—that if we can’t fit into the web of creation, of justice with the other beings, ultimately creation will throw us out. That is definitely on the horizon if we don’t change.

HGJ: Why do you think we are in such denial of this power we have, for example, the extermination of so many species? What prevents us from really taking action to save ourselves and our planet?

Matthew Fox: David Corton writes about a “suicide economy,” which is a living economy. The economy that we are running is suicidal, literally destroying us and everything around us. Our economics drives politics and it drives the media. The media is our primary source of education and information today. That has a lot to do with it. The very people bringing us a lot of our media and the information we depend on have an uncritical attitude towards the economic system the way it is, because these corporations are profiting from it. On the other hand, you have all these calls and cries from the poor reminding us that economics, as it is currently defined, is not serving anyone.

I think religion has been very blind. It is very anthropocentrism oriented—heavily worried about life after death, getting to heaven, and through the process, has missed the point. Religion is not healthy at this time of our history. There have been times when religion has been more healthy, less healthy, very healthy and this is not one of those times of very healthy religion. That is why there is a big gap between spirituality and religion. Fortunately there is a growing interest in spirituality and hopefully religion will eventually be bitten by that bug. We have available now like never before the wisdom of all the world’s spiritual traditions and that is a very special grace, a very special blessing, and it is absolutely essential for our survival that we call on that wisdom and get out of our denominational boxes and call upon whatever wisdom is available to help us.

HGJ: You talk in your book about the idea of the demonic in human creativity in the 20th century and that it seems to be so prevalent, but many of us are uncomfortable with that idea—that we can make demonic choices.

Matthew Fox: It is important how you worded that: We can make the demonic choices. It is very dangerous when we project the demonic or evil onto others like in the case of Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, that they carry all the weight of that. Erich Fromm, in his study of evil, The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness, says that if we think Hitler was the incarnation of all evil, and we project it all on him, then we have missed the whole lesson of Hitler. That he was elected by ordinary citizens. That he appealed to their resentments, to their shadow sides. And let me just say he will not be the last politician to appeal to people in this way. The point is that the evil that came through Hitler can come via any of us or any group.That is why all spiritual traditions talk about being vigilant. Being vigilant is all about looking at your own motivation. Asking what gods are we serving? What are our intentions?

All that is preventive medicine. A Native American instructor I knew once said that “Fear is the door in the heart that lets evil spirits in.” Because fear is such an important door for the demonic, we have to, especially in times like these which are fearful, combat that fear so it does not take over our psyches. Aquinas talks about fear being a mortal or deadly sin. We have to realize that. That’s what this Native American friend said, that is what all real prayer is about—building your courage, strengthening your heart so that fear doesn’t take over the heart. There are many ways to strengthen the heart - to combat the demonic so that it doesn’t take over—through spiritual practice, through cosmology, through community and study, so we are not taken in by the fear. If you listen to lot of radio in the US, it is hate radio and it’s all leading to fear. The media is selling itself on fear.

HGJ: Knowing this potential to use our creativity demonically or to live in a culture of fear, with the world on the brink of war, how are we being asked to live today. How do any of us live?

Matthew Fox: In Chapter 1 of my book I share ways that we can develop our self-awareness so that we can move in positive directions. We must realize that our true nature is creativity.

Creativity is part of our own nearness to ourselves and to the Divine, and that is what makes it original. Everyone deep down is unique. The mystics, like Meister Eckhart, talk about the innermost part of our being—that that is where God dwells. It is also where we dwell, but we are often pulled out to the surface instead. True creativity comes from a very deep place and when it is deep, it is intimate... and it goes out to a deep place as well. True creativity doesn’t hit you lightly; it hits you in an intimate place and gets you into your heart or in your place of truth and justice.

We are not passive couch potatoes. We are not lazy. We are not cogs in a machine. We have the potential to be powerful citizens in all areas of life: politics, education, religion, the media, and so on. We can get in touch with our own wisdom and express it. How do we find our wisdom? We have to learn to praise again; find what is really praise worthy in life, nature and creation, and take that into our heart. That is what swells the heart and builds it up and helps us stand against fear and darkness. We must have experiences of beauty and goodness, and then we must become practitioners of beauty and goodness, and spread more of it. And that again is what creativity does; our heightened creativity as a species brings more awe and wonder and grace into the world, and with that, people are strengthened and their imaginations are alive, so that we can think of alternatives for their troubles and conflicts. Thich Nhat Hanh tells us how important it is to “water the seeds of peace” because we also have seeds of violence in us.

And also going into the darkness is very important. Knowing that the darkness is a place of wisdom; the dark night of the soul is not a bad place to be. You learn a lot of truth there and a lot of compassion. But instead, we run from the dark. Our culture teaches us to go shopping when the going gets tough. In fact, one of the first things our president said after 911 was that we should put the economy to work and that we should all go shopping. Being in the dark, being in doubt, not knowing is actually a place of humility and humility comes from the word “humus” which means “earth,” which means being underground. You don’t fear being down there because you are growing roots that are very important. Also important is the building up of community (family, culture). What can we do to invigorate our culture? We can think more imaginatively about positive solutions, use rituals that clean the heart, teach forgiveness.

We’ve tended to underestimate the power of ritual. Religion has been so lame of late, that its rituals are quite close to dead. Rituals of grieving, for example. We are all in grief about a lot of things (about ecological devastation for one) that we need ways to get our grief out because that is our anger, and if we don’t get it out in healthy ways, it is going to come out in unhealthy ways. That is another appeal of this hate media we have, that it is filled with anger and, most of the time, as a people we are not doing our inner work to access our own anger, which is the first level of grief after all.

HGJ: What do you do for yourself each day to be in that space—to be creative and peaceful within?

Matthew Fox: I chant at my altar at home each morning for a brief period. I go for walks, especially along water. That energy is very healing for me. Or go to someplace in nature—walking on the earth is very important to me. I enjoy music, study, reading, friendship and laughter, trying to develop an attitude of gratefulness for food, health, and those things that we otherwise take for granted... simple things. And calling on the ancestors, the wise ones of the past who have left a legacy for us to learn from. All of those things help.